Nicholas Sunderland on Feng Shui, Bespoke Design & the Future of Luxury Interiors

Imke Du Toit

Hello and welcome back to FCI London podcast where we sit down with some of London's most influential luxury designers. I am your host, Imke Du Toit and today I am joined by none other than Nicholas Sunderland, founder and creative director of NS Interiors. Established in 2001, Nicholas's studio delivers bespoke residential and commercial interiors across London and the Southeast. Blending contemporary design with highly personalized client briefs. Known for clean spatial lines and balanced color palettes and its integration of Feng Shui principles, Nicholas creates interiors that are both functional and harmonious. Nicholas, it is an absolute pleasure to have you here today and welcome to the podcast.

Nick Sunderland

Thank you very much for inviting me.

Imke Du Toit

It's an absolute pleasure. So Nicholas, we're just going to jump in a little bit, look at the designer behind the studio. I mean, with over two decades of shaping interiors, do you believe the industry has evolved to be more design led or is it now increasingly driven by marketing?

Nick Sunderland

Well, it's an interesting question because originally before being an interior designer, I was in the marketing industry and in those days it was very, very different. So when I moved into interior design, which is quite a complicated story, but I moved into interior design via a marketing agency that I set up and the interior design aspect of it took over. And at that time, there was no Google. There was nothing else out there other than you advertised in magazines or you created an email campaign and set that up. So for me to start my interior design business, I literally created a database of emails, sent them out on a Sunday evening and got my first call first thing Monday morning. And I started my process of designing at that point the barrister's chambers. And it was a very, simple process of running a business and marketing. You just phone people up, you put an advert in local magazines or newspapers, and you got the work through that and with referrals as well. But it didn't take too long, sort of early 2000s, that Google and every other search engine started coming online. People started searching for interior designers. And the marketing side of it, I think, has taken over far too much from what it was in 2001 to how it is now in 2026. We are constantly having to market ourselves through social media. You can put an ad there. Nobody's really going to see it. I think magazine advertising has died. So you're spending in reality half your time marketing yourself and half the time trying to claw in all those leads to get the work in. And with Instagram, if you're not seen in the first few seconds or you haven't got something of interest, they pass you by. And originally, if you put a magazine advert out there, you could show people pictures, they'd be reading it, they'd be viewing it, probably for a couple of minutes, see what they like, and then they get in touch with you. Now it's a hard slog to balance marketing and designing. So you either have to do it yourself out of hours, if there are such things, or you get a marketing agency in to do all the SEO and social media for you. And that's not cheap, and not everybody wants to do it. And they still require a lot from you. So a long answer to a short question, I think the marketing side of interior design is dominating purely for the fact that there are so many people out there now that you've got to attract that if you don't do the marketing, you're not going to get the work. So that is up here as opposed to the time spent designing. It's a nightmare.

Imke Du Toit

Absolutely. absolutely agree. It's expanded exceptionally quickly as well. I mean, as you mentioned, since the early 2000s to now, just the level and the scope and the amount of different platforms available, especially within the marketing space and marketing of any business. And as you mentioned, it's vitally important to get that out there. So the going back to basics is actually very needed because, as you mentioned, chasing your leads becomes secondary to just trying to market on every platform and as quickly as possible and grabbing the attention of people. it is very interesting, Yeah, so at the moment you're saying as well, it's a lot more still marketing, you know, heavy at the moment. Hopefully it will start getting balanced, which would be, which would be great. And as you mentioned, being able to have your time separated really nice between marketing and going back to what you need to do, which is the design work,

Nick Sunderland

That's right.

Imke Du Toit

And so rapidly as well. I mean, what a phenomenal skill as well, I think to have. think it's fantastic if you have the skills in marketing. It really does help out. But it's, I think, as you said, it is vitally important to know how that balance is going to eventually be found. Okay. Well, moving on a little bit. mean, many designers claim they listen to clients. In reality, how often do you think clients actually know what they want when they first walk in?

Nick Sunderland

Well, this is a little bit controversial and I've got to be very polite. Clients come to you because they need your services. They're developing a property, they're designing a few rooms, whatever it is, they don't know how to do it. So they ask you how to do it. So you have to listen to what the brief is. Unfortunately, to the going back briefly to the Google aspect of it. Google is now there for people to go out there and find out a great deal of themselves. So clients often come to us with no knowledge of what they want, we have to listen to them to see what that brief is. And unless we do that, we can't really progress in designing the property for them. They have their own ideas because they do research before they come to us anyway. And I would say that's 100 % of the case. Everybody comes with an idea, but not how to do it or how to make it work in their own environment because millions, billions of pictures out there showcasing beautiful homes that are three, four, five times the size of the one they've got. So how can we make that work in our environment? So listening, recording, writing, noting is very, very important. And it doesn't matter how strong you are on your opinion of how it should look. The client isn't necessarily always right because you're advising. But you've got to take on board what they say. If they say, I want a green wall, and you think, hate green walls, that's your personality going into it. So you say, welcome the green wall. And you look at a way of actually introducing that green wall that doesn't look like a green roses from the 1950s. So this thing is very, very important. And if you don't do that, you're going to fail as a designer, I feel.

Imke Du Toit

I absolutely agree with you. And as you mentioned as well, I you are there to advise, you're there to guide them based on their ideas and what they want and the inspirations they bring forward to you with the job of the designer to making sure that that becomes a reality within real time as well. I think it's fantastic that you're saying as well, making sure that there's transparency, making sure things are recorded because as you said, it is vitally important to also, I think, look at also for a designer's point of view as well that you don't come across missing something. As you mentioned, there's ever changing in the works consistently as well that you as a designer also don't lose track of what the client mentioned because of all the moving parts. What aspect of the design process do clients rarely see but would be utterly shocked to discover just how complex it is truly? We've now just sort of touched on it a little bit where someone thinks that they know a little bit more about the construction side and possibly then realizes they don't know as much. I mean, what aspect of that design process do they not really see as much and would be shocked to discover just how complex it is?

Nick Sunderland

Well, I think that the biggest thing really is when you get into 3D renditions and walkthroughs, because everybody assumes that they're very quick, very easy and don't post anything. You're designing, so let's have a look at it like that anyway. We don't design in that way. I design in a partial 3D format for layouts and giving them a sort of very basic idea of what's what. They all want what you can see on television. All these programs give you virtual reality. They put these headphones on and they're sitting in their new home. And that's what they expect. And when you point out the costing form, because they think, well, why did it cost me? The length of time it takes because of the complexity of it. And that's always the first shock. And I say to them, OK, if you want this, half your budget's gone already. And what do you mean? And that's what they don't understand. They don't understand the complexity of creating these three things, walkthroughs, the virtual realities are a nightmare it's not a simple case of, OK, well, you've done it. I like that chair, but I don't like the shape, don't like the colour, don't like this. Let's change it. You don't just slot one in. You've got to go through whole different process. So I think collectively as clients and designers I think that is the one thing a client doesn't understand. They also don't appreciate how long it takes to really design something effectively to a brief because you've got a brief, you've got a budget. You've always got a budget. If they say don't have a budget, as soon as you hit a certain market that's gone over budget.

Imke Du Toit

Yes. absolutely. There's always a price tag limit at one point.

Nick Sunderland

That's right, you know, and you've got to be aware of that even if there is no budget you've got to be thinking, okay I've got to be cost effective on this because I want to do more and more and more.

Imke Du Toit

Yes. I absolutely agree, as you said, as well, as they don't really understand the complexity of creating, you know, like, as you mentioned, the 3D models for them to see it like what you see on TV. But at the same time as well, the amount of time it actually takes to design and the amount of times you have to start over, you know, back away a little bit, relook at something as you mentioned to be as cost effective as possible to give them more options if they're if required. But I do agree. And as you mentioned, as well, people saying I don't really have a budget, but there's always a budget at the end of the day. mean, always a price tag limit at some point, you know. I mean, I think it would be a designer's absolute dream to be able to design with a budget that's completely open ended.

Nick Sunderland

All of a sudden I have one. Yes. Yeah, there is.

Imke Du Toit

Okay, well, let's move a little bit into, you know, space and energy and looking a little bit at design philosophy. I you've introduced Feng Shui into modern British interiors, a practice still somewhat misunderstood in the UK. I mean, what's the biggest misconception wealthy homeowners have about spatial energy and layout?

Nick Sunderland

Well, I think the misconception is down to the misunderstanding of what feng shui is all about. I started training in this in the early 90s when there was very little out there to understand the game. You couldn't go online and find these things. So you had to find the book and it was a very, very small book that got me introduced into feng shui. Very simple, thin book. great pictures and drawings in it and I started following the drawings and skipping pages, not reading it to enhance my life because it was something, know, the whole esoteric lifestyle was of interest to me. So Feng Shui was something else, but I didn't know just how big and important it was. And when I started training in Feng Shui and working within the industry, which was beginning to grow, from the mid 90s, it was still very much an unknown system. was out of a group of people who extended the knowledge of Feng Shui, me very, very lightly because I still wasn't sort of qualified in the system, but I was learning both in the UK and then the Far East in master training. But it came out with such a force into the UK marketplace. We created, I was part of the people who created a design magazine based on Feng Shui and interior design, which was a massive launch across Europe. And that suddenly made people think about Feng Shui. And they stopped thinking about it around about 2000, 2001. I think because there was so much of it out there, people started thinking it was a fad and it wasn't something serious. Now, the fact that today there are certainly two to three billion people at least who follow the teachings of Feng Shui. It isn't all about trinkets, three-legged toads, statues, choosing several gods to go into your home. It was all oriental. think that's what put people off certainly in the West. When I was fully trained and I could do surveys, as I call them, I was traveling the world, working with people in very large houses, palaces in some situations that were huge. And they all said, well, we've got this beautiful home. It's got enormous rooms. We've got an entrance hall that's big. I mean, it's like... like sort of village halls, were some big, you just walked into this space and they thought that was good because that was the little amount they knew about energy of feng shui. They knew a bit about it, a little bit like earlier, little knowledge is a dangerous thing. So spatial awareness in feng shui is very different to people's understanding. If you imagine you've got a big house, you've got a double door entrance into the home. It's a big open stairwell, staircase going up several floors, very little furniture. You open the door on a windy day, you get this huge blast of energy, of chi going into the home, probably bringing in leaves, they're going into all the different doors that are open. And that energy is too much. It's overbearing, overpowering. And the whole point of spatial awareness and energy in a home is to slow it down, to make it calm and to make it an acceptable form of energy. So you're not literally going like that as you open the door. That's bad energy. You've to slow it down. And that's what people didn't understand particularly. was, I've got a big house, I've got lots of big space, I've got great feng shui. You haven't. That is so wrong. using feng shui now in the way I do and always have done, even before I set up my interior design business. Doing feng shui surveys in people's homes, I was actually redesigning the home for them, which is how it got into this process and changing positions of furnitures. Yes, people really call that, you move your sofa, you've got good feng shui. You've also got better spatial awareness. it's not just good feng shui. If you open the door and walk into the back of the sofa, that's bad. Walk into a room, you've got seating, you know, gently laid out in the most appropriate way. That's good facial awareness. But people didn't take that on board and they stopped doing it because it was ridiculed. Still is to some degree on television. If it's a comedy program, somebody will sometimes mention Feng Shui and, you know, I moved my biscuit tins so my feng shui is better. You know, it's that sort of thing. Why I set up the training school to teach people how to use punch training to design in a positive, non ridiculed way.

Imke Du Toit

As you mentioned as well, it is all about research and understanding it and going and reading up about it. Because I think that's also, I think it's quite valid with a lot of different things that are considered trends or fads in a lot of ways. And it's mostly because it comes from not really understanding or not researching into really understanding what it is or what the purpose is of it. Nicholas, you walked into a 10 million pound London home that looked perfect but felt uncomfortable, what was the first hidden mistake you'd expect to find?

Nick Sunderland

Okay, if I'm viewing a property, whether it's design or my first visit, I'll do this instinctively now. Whenever I approach a property, I look at the surroundings. It's what we call a form school or landscape feng shui. Now, what's going on outside a home affects what's going on inside a home. So I have a look around, I might have an idea that something's not quite balanced. I walk in and yes, if I feel uncomfortable, it doesn't give me a welcome feeling. I'm talking about years of interpreting this. myself so I can see these things. So outside first, inside then looking and see what's going on in that entrance. Is it clear? Is it too big? Is it cluttered? Is it too shiny? Big marble floors everywhere so energy literally scoots across the floor and goes off in different directions. Is there a big staircase that's going to spiral the energy straight upstairs and not be on the ground floor? I think One way of understanding how this works on an individual level is when you walk into a room and there's a number of people, number of seats, and people say to you, oh, welcome, take a seat. We all instinctively look around to see which chair we want to sit in to make us feel comfortable. And that's a normal thing to do. And you might walk right the way across the room. It might be in a corner, it might be at the back. It might be right at the front, but you know where you're going to feel comfortable sitting. And it's the same when you walk into a property. What's going to make you feel comfortable? And looking at what's going on outside, then inside to allow that energy flow to be at a level that is not going to knock you over or be overwhelming or disturb you. might be a painting, a massive painting on the far wall. or it might be a mirror bouncing the energy straight back at you. So you've got this going on as soon as you walk in, hidden. You can't see that energy, but your mind can feel it at a very subatomic level. You can feel it.

Imke Du Toit

That's very, interesting. I mean, I want to try and test it out myself as well when walking into a property next, because we don't always think about it in that way, but you're absolutely right. You do, you feel it, you can't really explain it, but as you mentioned, it's because something feels unbalanced within yourself. Because of something, as you mentioned, it comes down to how welcoming does the space feel and not so bombarded, which is very interesting. Let's look a little bit at the industry and a bit of a reality check. My apologies with regards to that industry. mean, with supply chains, bespoke, crop and ship and international sourcing facing delays and rising costs, is fully bespoke becoming harder to justify to clients these days?

Nick Sunderland

Depending on the brief, most clients want something that doesn't necessarily exist. It might only be simply having alcove units, but they want to fit it. So that's going to be bespoke. But is it an expensive bespoke? Probably not, because you can often have things made cheaper than actually buying existing or even adapting them. I know people who've had fitted wardrobes and they buy the carcasses from a well-known department store chain and they use the carcasses but put different doors on them. That's bespoke. They're getting what they want and it's probably not as expensive. But the bespoke market can be completely everything's made to order. Everything's made to a specific style and design. It's adapted, it's changed. You've got a designer in who's decided the exact layout of the wardrobes. It's all made to measure and built using beautiful products that nobody else has got. So no matter what you bring there, nobody else has got it and that is fully bespoke. And you can do that if you've got the budget for it. And again, it's down to the budget and the client's understanding of how that works. Sometimes when you say bespoke, know, they're shocked. This is going to cost me a fortune. It doesn't often cost a fortune. That's misunderstanding. And for some people, bespoke is choosing a sofa. The manufacturer can change the depth of the seat and the height and things as standard. There are lots of people that are doing that. And you choose a fabric from another supplier. So you've got something that nobody else has got because that supplier doesn't use that fabric. We've supplied it. Customers own material is fairly standard. and they've got something completely unique and their friends will say, what did you get that sofa? I had it made. It's that sort of approach that it helps you. But it is difficult to encourage people to go down that route because they think it's going to be very expensive. And if you do it right, if you plan it right, it's not. It might cost a little bit more depending on what it is, but that fraction increase in cost far outweighs the pleasure. they will get out of it. And that's all, yes.

Imke Du Toit

and having something unique to them as well which to me is always what bespoke should have you know should be it's not always to be that it's a massive price type but it's something that's so unique to you doesn't matter where it is could be something you know and as you mentioned take something and get it reupholstered with something else that you can't find and different things absolutely agree with that. In your experience, what matters more to high net worth clients today? mean originality or the reassurance that their home will retain a resale value? Because that's quite important, think, especially with high net worth clients. Is it about having the most original space or reassuring that their homes will retain a resale value?

Nick Sunderland

Yeah, well, it's a very good and very important question because it's sort of half and half. They want this home to look absolutely stunning and beautiful. They want it as a showpiece to show off to their friends. They want people to walk in and think, wow, that's amazing. To get to that stage, you've got to spend money. So you've got to spend it wisely. So many of the clients say, OK, this is what I want doing. That's the budget. It's a lot. We don't want to waste it. And you've got to let them realize that by spending the money here, not there, by doing this, by doing that, you will increase the value of your property. And that isn't as safe as it was a few years ago. We've had a number of situations, particularly in prime London, where property prices have dropped and plummeted. When they ever reach the negative equity situation, we don't know because people would never say that, you know, I've spent 100 million buying this and I've spent 50 million doing it up. It's now only worth 75 million. I'll wait and then it will be worth 200 million. You don't know that. But first of all, they want a property that looks amazing. They want it to retain value and you've got to convince them that it will do that. And that's where the scurvy designer comes in by, as we said previously, spending where you want to spend. Now, I had a client who bought a sub penthouse. A penthouse above was a couple of million more. The layout wasn't that great, but he bought the penthouse and he wanted to make his apartment look like the penthouse above. And it was never going to because the structure on the roof, which was part of the flat, actually not very good because it restricted views all over London. So, okay, we can make this work for you. And he was very cautious about money, very clever man, didn't waste any of it. So he wanted to make sure that what he was doing was going to make the people who couldn't get the penthouse above buy him. That was just as good. So we designed it accordingly, made some changes that were sensible, left those that weren't. So it was a mix of what he was getting. And for him, it was an investment, but he wanted it to look good for the two months a year he was going to stay there. He lived in the UK, but only lived in London for two months a year, staggered, so it wasn't even a two-month period, it was two one months, and he just wanted this show piece really to let people know this is where I'm living, it's amazing, but he wasn't going to lose any of his money. So I designed it accordingly, changed a few things, left a few things, encouraged him to do you know a few other bits and pieces that he hadn't thought of and he had along with the fun tray that he didn't know I did anyway, he had an amazing apartment that when he walked in, because he only visited twice anyway while I was doing it, and he came in and he looked around and he walked around and he was a very... He man, he spoke his mind. wasn't aggressive, but if he didn't like it, he didn't like it and that was it. Nothing was going to change his mind. So he walked in and looked around from room to room and he had his partner with him and she was looking around. You know, we were standing in the main reception room and he walked in through one of the other doors and he said, well, I didn't know if you could, but you did. And that was his praise. And what happened was because of what we did, because of how I designed it using the Feng Shui principles anyway, he lived there for the 10 months, not the two months. He only traveled away for two months. So he completely flipped because he was now in his own mind living in that London penthouse that he always wanted. And I checked the prices every now and again, I'm, know, loose end, like once a year, and check the value of the property. Penthouse doesn't come up very much, or very often rather, but his has grown, not in the thousands, the tens of thousands, but in the millions. So he's got a return on his investment. That's what he wanted, but he equally wanted something that was wonderful to live in. So much so, he actually lived in it. So, yes.

Imke Du Toit

that he actually decided to live there, which is what that's, I think that's an amazing, I think that's an amazing kudos to you as a designer as well, is that you get him to flip to come and live there for 10 months out of the year as well. But I think, I think you hit the nail on the head with the question of what you were saying. It's such a balance between the two that you want that original space, you know, for you and something that's again, I think comes back to the word bespoke in some way that it's, you know, one thing in a million, but. think it's kind of it's sort of ever growing as well, especially within the market of real estate, especially if people are investing in it so often as well. I mean, if we're looking at, you know, clients and wealth and changing behavior, I mean, the prime property market in London is shifting. I mean, with overseas buyers, mean, tax changes, the global uncertainty as well. I mean, are you noticing a difference in how international clients sort of approach home design compared to five years ago? we're looking now at the international clients?

Nick Sunderland

Well, even a year ago, have changed. People are very, very cautious and a lot of in the press, we read that UK millionaires are leaving the country. They're taking their money with them. What's encouraging outside high net worth individuals to come to the UK? We're not seeing that yet. Some people are completely untouchable, and they will always be there. But I think the vast majority of them are hardworking. They're raising their funds, they're raising money by hard work. They don't want to lose it. The UK was a safe place to be in. The feeling now is that it's not and people are being very cautious about it. So those sort of projects aren't coming easily. They're talked about, but they're not actually starting. We're for the next event to come through from the governments, from the international market. Politically, it's a very dangerous place to be in at the moment. And we just don't know. people are cautious. If World War breaks out, doesn't matter how much money they've got, it's worthless. So to my mind, keep saying, get on with it. Don't wait, just get on with it. Make your mind up. We've got to carry on. We've all been through recessions. I don't think this is any different. It's just a different approach with different people. Recessions happen, we all bounce back. And if you are strong enough, you can bounce back now, properties are going to be cheaper. So you're to make more money later on. You know, that £10 million house, might get for £8 million now. And in three, four years time, it will jump the 10 and become 12. You've got to be very clever with your investment. And of course, it's their money, not ours. And all I can say, you know, through this podcast is don't wait, otherwise you'll never do anything. Be positive. Keep going. build up your investment portfolio and get back into the marketplace while it is still there.

Imke Du Toit

get back into yes absolutely yeah no it's wonderful listening to you about the because no but it is as you mentioned as well I mean it's nothing different to what it was a couple of years ago to what it is now everything's and constantly it constantly changes there's so many different ways things go up go down and as you mentioned as well as to to be there to be in it and as you said take a chance on on be clever with your investments as well, not to wait and to do what it is that you're wanting to do. And I think that's sort of that mentality that needs to shift a little bit. I mean, do you believe British luxury clients are becoming more discreet in their interiors, opting for quieter luxury or is bold statement design making a comeback? if we're looking at ever shifting and changing, you know, things that happen within the industry and within life at the moment, I do you believe luxury clients becoming more discreet in their interiors?

Nick Sunderland

I think the luxury clients are becoming very much discerning. They don't want too much bling anymore. They're discreet. They're gentle in their approach. They can be forceful in certain areas of the property where they can make a statement. But the whole property isn't going to be big and loud. You get this in smaller properties. I mean, the trend now is for you know, very dark coloured kitchens. If you've got a big property, a big farmhouse or something like that, that works quite well in a smaller property not. But if you're spending a lot of money, you want to show wealth and taste. And sometimes I think being brash with colour is just going too far. Colour Yeah, experiment with colours, experiment with wallpapers and paint colours. By all means do that because you can easily change that. Get yourself a black kitchen. You'll regret it the first time you turn your tap on. You will because it will just look a mess. You'll have a team of staff cleaning it constantly. Dark kitchens are overbearing. They make the room smaller. All these strong fittings that cost a fortune because you look at it sometimes, two, three, four hundred thousand pounds for a kitchen that's grey, dark grey. No, no, you can so easily go off it. I mean, if it's a trend, I encourage people away from it. If they insist, then I have to work with it. But if it's a trend and I think the high networks don't... really follow trend, just follow luxury and style. So as long as you've got brands on show, you know, if it's a throw over a sofa, then at least see the Versace label on it. You know, that's what they go for. Subtle luxury, not strong blended colours everywhere. personally, I love colour, don't get me wrong. I love colour and where I can use it, I will use it. But if it's something that, you know, the Pantone color of the year, everybody goes off using that color. The following year there's another one. Do you redecorate? No, you don't. You choose a color that works with any design and you work with that. If it happens to be a Pantone color from two or three years, great use it. But trends come and go all the time and they repeat. You've only got to listen to the music industry to see that. You know, the music. Absolutely. And now all you hear is 80s music, which is my favourite time for music and life in reality. There was so much going on then. the 80s music is being discovered by the younger set now who've never heard it before. They this is amazing. And you think, great, good music. But it's like that with design. Colours, patterns, manufacturers coming in and out of popularity. It's just, it's very fickle. It's a very fickle industry, but a very, very powerful industry. So I find that yes, they're more subtle in their approach. They want to share wealth in a very soft and subtle way, not bang.

Imke Du Toit

I guess also, yes, I guess also I mean it comes back to longevity as well, know, and something that can kind of stand the test of time a little bit where the luxuries, you know, that sort of luxury interior is sort of is timeless throughout a longer period, as you mentioned as well, that's not following a trend. And as you were mentioning, if you want a matte black kitchen, are you going to hate it within the next month or two? Do you go to redecorate having to rethink about? Are you going to be happy with that? So it's very interesting as you mentioned as well that it's the smaller properties that are doing the bold statements now. Do you think that comes with age? I know that's not really even part of the question, but I'm just kind of interested. Do think that's because it's more of your younger clients doing the bolder pieces than your older generational clients?

Nick Sunderland

it's more the of the young to mid range, 30s, 40s tend to go for bold statements. The younger ones don't have properties. And the older marketplace, I think it's more respectful and delicate in its approach. That's the way it's sort of that sort of mid level. And I call it, I don't know if you know the program. I call it the Hollyoaks syndrome because Hollyoaks a TV program, all their rooms are sort of bright yellows and blues and everything's clashing. I think that's encouraging that sort of age group to do the same. And it looks awful. If you don't do it right. Yeah, if you get it right, it can look really good. if it's everywhere. You know, it's just like walking into some sort of horror museum.

Imke Du Toit

Absolutely. What's one thing high net worth clients never say out loud, but every experienced designer knows to read between the lines? What would that be?

Nick Sunderland

Well, we touched on it briefly earlier. It's, can't afford it and I don't want to spend the money. It's all show. They're very wealthy people. They're perceived to be very wealthy. They might be facing bankruptcy through the next door, but they want to project a sense of great wealth and I can afford anything I want. So you start designing these things and you're always giving, know, budget updates as you go along. And then you see the sweat. on the forehead and they might be able to afford it. There might be over-section themselves, you don't know, but it's that thing that they don't tell you from the start that, I don't want to spend more than this. I can't afford it. And they don't tell you, you just have to look for them and the way they're reacting and, I'm not sure if I like that now. They briefed you on what you want. So you've gone down and you've come down that route. No, I don't think I like that.

Imke Du Toit

it's a very, very sensitive situation as well. mean, especially if you get too far into a project and then that comes to light as well. So again, it comes back to our previous, you know, discussion about certain things that clients don't always appreciate the amount of time and energy it actually takes as well. So I think it comes down to being as transparent and honest from the get go to make something work for both. But it's a very, it's always a bit of a, it is a very, very fickle industry, as you mentioned as well, from being from what the client says and what they want to very different things. Let's look a little bit at technology and AI. I AI can now generate room concepts in seconds. We discussed this obviously earlier when you're talking about like the 3D models. I mean, do you see that this is as a threat to design thinking or merely a tool will expose which designers truly understand space? Since there's so many AI generated tools that can be used. I mean, do you see it as a threat in the design thinking or more as a tool to expose designers?

Nick Sunderland

I like AI. I've embraced it. I've come through a period of my life with no technology at all. And I absolutely love the whole concept of it. When it came to designing in 3D, I fought it at first, but then found a program that was so good to use. I've been using it ever since. In fact, I was the fourth person in the UK. to actually buy the software. It so, so easy. And I carry on using it, not all the time. It has limits because then it's down to timing. So what I present to people as I'm designing is a very basic floor plan and 3D process that they understand and invariably that's all they need. AI coming on the market less than two years ago has dominated almost everything. It's really down. I don't think we should be. Nervous about AI, I think we should embrace it, but I think we have to be very careful what we do with it, and it's not what we as designers do. It's what the rest of the world does with it. That's problematic. But as designers, it will only create something at the moment. What you feed into it, the more information. feed into it, the better the result that comes out of it. And yes, you can do that in a few seconds. And you've got a very basic rendering that you can show to a client. Now, if it's a complicated setup, there's a lot going on in the room. The spot's work can only place these things in that location. It can't move it a fraction over because it's going to be bumping into another sofa or coffee tables knocking into a corner of a seat. They're the sort of things that come up when you generate these AI images. It's not perfect. There's no designer soul into it. And the more information you put in, the more it can do. But it's limited as to what it can actually absorb itself. So it's scouring the world, putting all this together for you in a minute maximum. And you've got a great knowing that you can show people. At a simpler level, when for a long number of reasons we had to decorate two rooms in my home before Christmas because of an insurance leak, I wanted to paint the doors black. They were glass doors. Never liked them, never bothered to change them. As designers, you know, we don't, we look after everybody else, not ourselves. And I said to my wife, I really want those doors black. They will look so much better. Then she said, no, I don't think so. That's going to look awful. So I took a photo of them, loaded it into my app, changed the walls to black, walked over the room, showed them. She said, when did you do that? I've just done it now. She could see the black walls looked amazing. So we painted them black. It's great for that sort of thing. Quick ideas to show a client. Even in a meeting, you know, we're having a discussion. I really don't know what to do with that wall. I'd like it. I'll say green again. So I take a photograph, change it green, show us. I said, don't really want that, do you? No. It's a great system. Better systems are coming out all the time. It is getting better. We have to use it. But I still don't think it's going to take over. real level from an interior designer, certainly not an architect. If an architect uses AI, I'm not stepping inside that building. Because there's so much to do about an architect.

Imke Du Toit

Yes. You didn't know what's going to happen. What was miscalculated. I think it actually comes to my next question. I mean, if you show an AI generated luxury interior right now, I what floor would you instinctively look for? But the software still gets wrong. And I think it sort of comes to what you were saying now, like just recently, you know, yes, you're getting that. I mean, they can look and the look will be fantastic, but it necessarily mean it's going to work within that space in real time.

Nick Sunderland

No, I think if you've got the right program and you're prepared to input the correct information for it, yes, you can have an amazing layout for within a day, that's for sure, with time off for lunch and afternoon breaks and so on, because it is so very, very fast. But it's what you put in, you get out. If you don't put it in, it's not going to come out. And you've Don't let sofa sit so close to each other. You're working on a floor plan, so you've to give measurements of where the chair sits, the table sits, where the light is, where the window light is coming from. You can do it. It's a lot cheaper and quicker. It's still time consuming, but it's still not going to get it right because there's going to be something So you go down this spiral. So keep it simple. It hasn't got the soul of the designer in it. Because when we're drawing, when we're designing, when we're putting things together, even a simple motherboard, you're moving things around, you're changing that fabric from one shade to another. AI doesn't do that. It just doesn't do it. It can't do it. So at the moment, I'm not worried. Ask me again next year.

Imke Du Toit

but I guess it is what it is. mean, a lot of different designers I've also spoken to as well. I everyone's on the same page in terms of embracing it. We can't get away from it. is here. AI is here. It is for us to use. I guess it's finding what works for you as an individual as well, because not everyone uses AI, especially within the design world in the same way as everyone else. Okay, I mean, after two decades in the industry, mean, what still genuinely excites you when a new project brief lands on your desk?

Nick Sunderland

Simple answer to that is a new project because everything about it is new. The client's new, so I've got to build up relationships with new people. The project is entirely different, the location is different, the budget is different, the brief and style of that particular client is different. So everything is fresh. Every new project excites me.

Imke Du Toit

I mean, and how wonderful to be able to be in a career where it is so ever-changing, where nothing is the same. think it's just such an everything so memorable and different experiences, especially within the design world and obviously the marketing world as well. Again, different clients, different, you know, things that that need to happen. And I think that's personally as well, it's what excites me about jobs that are ever shifting and changing. It's not so monotonous. Everything is just so different. And it's a new challenge all around. So I think it's a lovely way to, to that what Jane did excites you is the new project that comes on your desk. If you could change one thing about how the interior design profession operates in the UK today, what would that be?

Nick Sunderland

I think generally, it's everybody else's impression of how important the interior design industry is, not just designers and architects and artists, but also the whole manufacturing industry. Just how important we are for the economy more than anything else. We make people's lives better because we make them happier. I go that little bit further using my function, which I'll mention again. because that's changing lives on a personal level. But you know, some people, know, when you say, what do do for a living? so I mean, you're a designer, go, you know, well, I'm an engineer, I do this, I do that. I think, okay, up to about 2019, the revenue from the design industry was approaching 100 billion pound a year. Now that's not significant. I don't know what they currently are. We had the Covid situation which changed the industry revenue to some degree, it's pounding away now. So it's probably well over a hundred billion. Now that's not insignificant. That's about five percent of the economy from one industry. And I would imagine it's way over a hundred billion now. We will need to respect that and understand how important we are. to create the jobs that we do, because any interior designer goes to wallpaper manufacturers, goes to furniture manufacturers, lighting, flooring, and all these industries rely on us to give them business. It just escalates all the way through. So it's not, you know, we're not nurses or doctors, completely different thing altogether, but we do have a presence in the economy that's very, very significant. And I think it is. We just want to be respected for that, really. And I think if we could have that, offer in respect to the industry, it would elevate our importance out there. A simple thing in reality, it's already there, it's just got to be recognised. It's just got to be mentioned. I think it's, you know, that's another level. think it's the public that need respect for us as well. Everybody loves interior design. Soon as you mention it, it's, I always wanted to be an interior designer, you know, design this room, they do this. They start telling me what they've done in their homes while I'm at the dentist, you know, with having things probed down my throat. You they all want to talk about it. Everybody loves interior design. And that respect for us and the respect that we have in our years of training to get to that situation. We've got to be, I would say we've got to be loved by all, we've got to be respected by all, that as we just said, know, governments and legislation, they've got to understand who we are. Individuals need to know that, okay, just because you've got an interest in interior design, you can't just start up a business, you've got to be registered, you've got to know what it's all about and have respect. for the industry as well as yourself. If you're serious, get out there and start learning. You can do it very, very simply. You can be an intern. If you've got an interest and a calling for design, start working within the industry to build up. Go on a course, do this, do that. Have respect for it and treat us with respect really. I've worked in three different industries. I've worked in advertising and marketing. I've worked in publishing and I've worked in interior design sector. And this is the only sector where I found that everybody, manufacturer and designer, have respect for each other. The other is cutthroat, completely cutthroat. And this is the only industry where I feel wanted for any other word.

Imke Du Toit

a very, very interesting thing to take away? And I'm glad that you feel a lot more at home and wanted within this space and this industry that you're in. Because I do feel that that's important as well, just for your own personal growth as a person as well. again, I think it comes back to people. is, you know, it is within an industry where it is about relationships and the relationship you have with people, with your clients, with your suppliers and being able to build on that. I mean, I think it just comes down, you know, to my final question. mean, when sourcing statement pieces for a project as an example, what do you value most in a furniture partner? Would it be flexibility or innovation or is there something else that comes to mind?

Nick Sunderland

I suppose if I have to choose the order, innovation first and flexibility second, because they might come up with a completely innovative product, can it work in a design or can it be adapted to work within the design? where designers are always looking for something new and something fresh and something different, because you want to pass that on into the marketplace and not only help the manufacturer but highlight that you as a designer are completely up to date and fresh in the marketplace. You found this item. You haven't gone to Etsy and found it, but you've sourced real manufacturers. Sorry, didn't take that Etsy because they produce great products. But from a piece of furniture, you want something that works with a design that's perhaps a little bit different. It's inner disinclined by what they've done with that design. And so, yeah, that's the way I would go for it. And building up that relationship with that supplier to make it work for you. And if they say, really like that style of chair you've got, but it doesn't work in my space. And they've got to be able to say, OK, how big do you want it? It might cost. It doesn't always come free. Sometimes you've got to pay for it. And if the budget allows, you get that innovative product working in your design. So that's what clients want, that's what they come to us for. I certainly enjoy what I do. That's a fact.

Imke Du Toit

I guess that's what we all need to strive for, it? It's finding a space that you are able to do what you absolutely love and feel the most valued in, as what we were speaking about today. But thank you so much, Nicholas. It's been a really absolute pleasure having you with us and for sharing all of your thoughts and approaches to creating beautiful, balanced and livable interiors and obviously also bringing a lot of your insight into Feng Shui and the fact that you're bringing that into also an educational program. and how you're growing that side of things as well. I've learned a lot as well just through our conversation, lot of things that I've taken away personally myself that I would like to go and put into practice and just to see for myself. So thank you so much as well. And thank you for all of your insights. It's been absolutely lovely chatting to you today.

Nick Sunderland

Thank you. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you very much indeed. Appreciate it. Thank you.

Imke Du Toit

Fantastic. And to, of course, all of our listeners and viewers out there, thank you so much for joining us on the FCI London podcast. Keep following and keep designing and join us again as we continue our conversation with London's most influential actually designers.